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Yes; we all have more than one side to ourselves, and this site should reflect our true natures.

5 (38.5%)

No; the Dark Side has its time and place, but I don't want it here even if I can ignore it.

7 (53.8%)

Just shut down the site; this place has forever been tainted.

1 (7.7%)

Total Members Voted: 11

[Foxeye]

Though many of you may not know it, this site has always had a "Rants" section that was only visible to members above a certain post count.  Recently there was an argument that took place there that resulted in a member deleting their account, so we're at a crossroads trying to decide whether any changes are called for. We think there are, but we'd like feedback from others

A little background...

...While initially Kael and I described the Rants! section as a place to "use your teeth", we quickly learned that this community was a bit gentler than many of the folks on the internet.  They were still...well...polite.   So the forum really turned more into a place where people could bare a little more of their hearts and get support from other members. Which was AWESOME, but...well, a very different sort of place than what I thought of as a rants forum.  When this started to happen, Kael and I probably should have recognized this trend and separated the two areas; ranting about your personal life is very different from Ranting(TM).

So what  is a Rants Forum(TM)?

A (not-so-)little history...

...once upon a time a young and innocent couple of geeks became part of an online community that was very vibrant.  One of the most fascinating yet terrifying areas of this otherwise-cilivized forum was the Rants Board.  We saw normally civil and compassionate people saying the most horrific and un-PC things!  It was abhorrent at first. But then we began to realize that much of what they said, they didn't mean.  And even those who replied with equally angry language and disagreement still liked each other.  It gave new meaning to the phrase "verbal sparring match". A place to just let off steam where no one would think less of you for arguing with the logic of a 10 year old and using the language of a 50-year-old-sailor.

It was a pressure valve. And when they were done, they went back to being chums on the rest of the site. It was a bizarre implementation of the Way. You challenge, you tussle, then you forget. Sort of like day-to-day life; everyone has different views, and sometimes they clash, but in the end you get along.

And to wax philosophical...it was a chance to see what happens when opposing views come in contact without societal pressures to keep your personal deviations in check.  The insights to be gained by lurking were great. And the insights to be gained about yourself by participating were even more profound. Normally that sort of growth only comes at the expense of lost friends and/or family.

And, oh yes, they rated each other. It was a sport. Who could be the most crazy seeming? Who could craft the most creative insults? Or who could wield an argument so brilliantly that they just shut down the opposition! The sort of argument that left you feeling like you had been steamrolled, but you weren't quite sure. If you felt like playing the raving lunatic, you could. If you felt like having a "real" debate and honing your argument skills (especially against a raving lunatic...they are the toughest to best), you could do that to. What you didn't do was take anything there personally. If that started to happen, you took a break.

Over the years that young couple found other sites with similar sections, and grew to love them.

So that no-longer-so-young couple wanted such a place here.  We forgot that to those who had never before been to one of these bizarre places could find it quite abhorrent.  Foul and offensive.



And that is what happened here. Someone who finally accepted our "invitation" to post a rant was read by someone who took them very VERY seriously and felt personally attacked. They attacked back in kind, and our attempts to diffuse the situation with our sense of humor failed.

So.

What do we do now?

I'm fairly certain we are going to keep a private part of the forum where members above a certain post count (currently 15) can talk about personal things. That area will no longer be unmoderated, but will be held to the same code of standards as the rest of the site.  

What we don't know is if we'd have an unmoderated* rants area anymore. Perhaps this group of people just isn't all that enthusiastic about such an activity. That's where I'd like to hear from the community.  Do you think an unmoderated "dark side" can coexist with a supportive, compassionate, and friendly site?

*Unmoderated except for these two rules: 1) No personal attacks and 2) What happens in Rants, stays in Rants.  In other words, don't get personal, and don't bother the members who have no interest in Rants.


The Conclusion (quoted from a post further down in this thread):

After giving the subject more introspection, I do feel strongly that if we can find a way to allow members of the EQ fandom to rough-house without troubling those who just want to come here and relax from the Storm of Ugly that can be the internet...I still want to try that. 

When the Wolfrider's came to live in the Sun Village, they didn't stop hunting or howling.  The two cultures found a balance and came to value each other.  (With the exception of Strongbow, maybe.   )  Their differences gave both sides a chance to be more than they were.  Nightfall saw it was possible to dance safely without a human catching you off guard. Redlance found the peace and safety to let his magic emerge. Villagers saw that you could turn a herd of rampaging zwoots rather than retreat to the hills and let them destroy everything.

That is the model of what I envision in an EQ community - people from many "tribes" coexisting and enriching each other.         

And if nothing else, a "rumpus room" provides me a place to move threads/posts to that grow too hot for the general tone of this site.   That way the peaceful atmosphere can be preserved without censorship. If folks want to argue, I won't suppress them, but I will make them "take it outside the village".  No trampling people's gardens!     

It will be inaccessible to everyone except those who have expressly chosen to have access.  For the time being this means you PM me if you want access. Eventually I'll add a toggle to the Account Profile so you can come and go as feels right to you.

As such, the thread that started this all and led to some members leaving will remain there, but all posts relating to it (except this thread) will be removed from the rest of the forums.  Cross-contamination is not allowed!

[Emberra]

I voted yes.
After all I think that people shouldn't have to hide part of themselves here, though I do think that things should be monitored just in case things get out of hand. Maybe, have it in the rules to report to an admin when your feeling harassed. After all, no admin can monitor things all the time.
At the same time if you post something you have to be ready to hear other's users opinions even if they don't coincide with yours. Its like workplace harassment, only the person can say when they are being bothered by what others are saying. It is really their responsibility to say "I'm not comfortable with what your saying", "Can we talk about something else", or just not respond to the post. If the person saying these things doesn't stop and it should be the harassed users responsibility to report it to an admin or something.
Then again, this is just my opinion. Just thought I'd put it out there.

[Startear]

I do think that the word true nature isn't the correct term, I do agree with that it should be there. For good or bad, there are some things you feel that you can do or say online which you cannot in the real world. Frankly, I read all of the rants, and I was away when the fight started, and I saw nothing inappropriate here.

[Eregyrn]

The background you gave above makes what you intended with the section make more sense... but my reaction to that is that while I can imagine it's quite possible to build such a community, I honestly don't know that we have the kind of community here that's looking for, or would benefit from, that kind of contained conflict and darkness.

I kind of think that what we (some of us) witnessed was a real clash of community expectations, that is difficult to reconcile.  That is -- it's one thing to invite people to post about inner conflicts or troubles that aren't necessarily very nice; it's something pretty different to try to set up a no-holds-barred debate club, as it were, where someone can engage in spraying emotional buckshot at any and all readers, with the expectation that anyone who does read it should just brush it off.

I'm not saying the latter is a terrible idea. I'm saying it takes a certain kind of community to make it work, in the way that it sounds like the place you were modeling it on actually worked.

I imagine that a bunch of us here have been on the internet for a long while, and seen a lot of different kinds of communities; and we've become more experienced about what to expect (maturity level, cussing level, trolling level, etc.) based on the community we enter.  Something I've come to realize is that I can handle... contentiousness amongst posters, let's say, in communities that are geared towards something I am less emotionally invested in to begin with. 

But this is a community that has come together for two related reasons: a real love of ElfQuest (which many of us admit we have an emotional attachment to going back years), and a desire to share artwork (which is something that for many people is bound up in ego and emotion, and the act of sharing it can be a fraught one even for experienced artists).

In a context like that, finding out about some of the struggles and frailties of my fellow community members doesn't bother me... but I can see where it's a context of heightened emotion for some, in which finding out that one's fellow community members can be casually cruel towards another part of your identity (even if they didn't think they were addressing anyone personally) is far more intense than it would be if you were in a forum/community centered around a subject less important to your own identity to begin with.  (As, for example, sharing my art with others is bound up in my identity; whereas, talking about a sports team I follow really isn't.)

In a community that has as a part of its rules/standards "respect each other" and "no flame wars", it seems like it might be difficult to successfully maintain a portion of the forum in which those standards are suspended.  Especially if that kind of particular "fight club"-style Rant Board experience is a relatively rare one elsewhere, so that not many of the people coming here are used to it or expecting to find it.

That's just me, though.  If you want to continue that experiment, go for it; I'll just know to stay far away from it.

[Windschatten]

I tent to agree with Eregyrn. I wouldn't mind such an area, but I would stay far away from it. Some topics I know I just bound to breed over. I envy everyone who can brush things off that easily, but I know I can't, depending on the topic.

Sharing inner darkness for me is something that remains to people close to me. This is just not the place I would do it or want to read about it. If I am close to a member here I will have an open ear, if someone asks me and I feel save enough I will answer but that's it.

[Icebird]

Holly managed the words much better than I can ever hope to write them so I'll keep my two cents short. Personally I haven't had the need for the Rant Board and I somewhat doubt the need for its existence in this community. On the other hand it being there doesn't really bother me, so if others have use/need of it and know how to behave in order to avoid drama I say go for it. As long as the actual purpose of ElfQuestFanart.com stay the same as it's always been 

[Flowerstar]

How come I can't vote in the poll any more ? (No, I didn't vote yet, I just looked at the votes yesterday ...)

I think Holly summed it up very well, so I won't have much to say - beside the fact that I'm mostly a lurker anyway. It certainly wasn't clear what the intention behind the rant board was ... When I read rant, I think of someone letting loose about a topic with some passion, but not of free-for-all nastiness that is to be understood as "nothing personal" ^^". That would be a place I would stay away from as far as possible. I think I can handle passion even if I disagree, but nastiness ... not so much, even for "sport". I really think this is not the community for it ...

[Foxeye]

Sorry, looks like I hit the "lock voting" button by accident last night. Fat fingers on an ipad.

So far what I'm reading here confirms what I had been suspecting, but I wanted to ask rather than unilaterally decide. 

Assuming no one comes forward to strongly disagree in the next few days, the rants board will not be returning.  I'll reopen the private area later today.

[Afke]

There were one or two topics I enjoyed in that forum, and that wasn't about ranting -- it's the private part about it that I liked.
I don't really like to read rants actually; if I want to get something of my chest, I'd rather do that with friends/family.
If it's intended to be read and then forgotten, then it's purpose passes me; internet feels too much like "forever".

I feel really sad that someone decided to leave because of something that was said there. This site was not meant to hurt your feelings.
I don't know what it was about, because I have not seen it, and I have been without a computer for the past week.

[Foxeye]

OK, "Sanctuary" should now be visible to those with 15+ posts.

There is so much I would like to say, but I have learned through this experience that my words have more reverberations than I was prepared for.  If an admin's post is misconstrued the ramifications can be much more damaging than from a regular member...and it's so very easy to misunderstand each other on the internet.  Heck, I don't understand myself most of the time. *chuckle*

What I can safely say, I think, is that FWIW I am sorry to everyone who has been hurt by this, because I do feel responsible for all but setting it up to happen.  No, I can't control member's behavior, but I can clearly communicate.  

[Multimedea]

OK, "Sanctuary" should now be visible to those with 15+ posts.

There is so much I would like to say, but I have learned through this experience that my words have more reverberations than I was prepared for.  If an admin's post is misconstrued the ramifications can be much more damaging than from a regular member...and it's so very easy to misunderstand each other on the internet.  Heck, I don't understand myself most of the time. *chuckle*

What I can safely say, I think, is that FWIW I am sorry to everyone who has been hurt by this, because I do feel responsible for all but setting it up to happen.  No, I can't control member's behavior, but I can clearly communicate.  

Don't be so hard on yourself, Foxeye. People also have to be responsible for the things they misconstrue and not take a knee-jerk reaction to every perceived slight. Communicating through the internet isn't an excuse for leaving common sense, good manners, and civil discourse at the door. Granted, I never really understood the purpose of a "Rants" section and didn't participate in it, so...

[Foxeye]

Well if nothing else, we got some snazzy new emoticons out of this. Hopefully we can find a more tactful use for them.

Examples:

 

[Emberra]

I shall be using that stick poke one often. When I'm not typing on my phone because it's not letting me access the rest of the smileys.

[Windrider]

Yeah Foxeye, what Medea said.  You have gone out of your way to make this website a safe haven in the vast sea of ugly ranting that is the internet.  One slip up doesn't cancel that.

This is one of my favorite emoticons.  Every forum needs an expression of exasperation:

[Foxeye]

OMG, I must add that!

[Treefox]

Due to absence I am very late to leave my comment here, but I also agree largely to what Eregyrn said. I guess I never really understood the meaning of a rant thread. It was more about sharing personal things anyway. And as far as I have seen it, everybody who shared their story was always treated with respect. So I guess I was rather lucky to have not witnesses the altercation, leaving me with no hard feelings.
But I still like to add that I also think that you, Foxeye, do a very good job and managing and moderating this site, as I definitely feel more at home here than anywhere else. I hope that the unpleasant fight will not change that on the long run.
And yay to new emoticons!

[Windschatten]

^^' The problem with the internet is that me for example, do not always get that my style of writing strikes some as impolite. I more then once ran into the problem actually. People told me I was impolite to downright mean and I wondered were they come from.

Later through a friend I found out it's simply a problem of language and minor culture things. What people from American boards thought as impolite for example for me is just "getting to the point". As a German I don't beat around the bush but say what I want and expat to be done which is around here no problem and rather the norm, but it seems other countries it is considered as impolite to say right away.
Father I have my way to talk which is MUCH harder in the pure writing then the way I talk and I often miss individual gestures and expressions, sound of the voice in the net. Most of that you don't even notice until you see how important tools of communication they are. Emotions and Smiliy can only patch that and often not well...

So the net for me never was the ideal place to rant or try to settle fights (even if that's hardly to avoid) For example I was discussing with a friend via mail and we gt into a really hot headed one almost clashed until I picked up the phone and called him and the thing was settled in 5 minutes...

Thing is I can do my best to make the forums as save as possible, but you never can be sure because you just can't see how other's react and in what condition they really are. I agree it's what people are responsible to look for themselves but let me tell you if you get into a discussion about something that's important to you that's not always easy.

[Foxeye]

I sympathize, Windschatten, although I can't explain it as a language or culture problem. *sigh* My problem is that my sense of humor, which is usually somewhat cynical and twisted, is very contradictory to my otherwise affectionate and soft-hearted nature. I literally hurt whenever I see someone unhappy...and yet I have a sense of humor that can be hurtful, or at least awkward, to people who don't share it. I've gotten some horrified looks before from people who previously liked me.

I can't help but think to myself "Gosh, I think this idea (rants) is very cool. Yet all these people really find it disturbing. What must they think of me for liking it?". *sigh*  And I worry that anyone out there like me who is mostly sensitive and warm-hearted, yet has "rough edges" (twisted sense of humor, strong opinions, etc), will feel similarly and not join in because they fear that they won't be welcomed because they'll accidentally reveal themselves to be the Wrong Kind of Person. 

The internets is tough! 

[branchscamper]

I don't normally post a lot on forums and therefore I don't think I really have any say in a lot of this.  I also didn't vote either way as there are many pros and cons for all choices.  I will accept whatever decision is made. 

I used to frequent forums a lot, but it was due to the many arguments that made me more of a lurker.  Too many people had too many opinions of people.  It was very HS and I left HS drama behind me (or atleast I can hope) long ago.  I did often read rant sections and some of the arguments or points that came out were very enlightening, but a lot of people did take offense to things being said.  There are a lot of sensitive topics that people feel very personal about and therefore caused a lot of problems.  Once it turned ugly I would often not look at it again.

I am very open minded on a lot of things, but there are several topics that I feel strongly about be it for or against them and I would often boil once reading these topics and how people felt.  I would turn away if it came to that.  Once or twice when I would reply people were surprised by how I reacted/felt/opinionated I was and they do look at you differently afterwards. 

I feel bad it has come to this here and I hope we will all grow from it and still remain a big fanart family in the end.  We're all human.  We're not perfect.  That's just how we are to accept it 

[Eregyrn]

FWIW, Foxeye, I don't think badly of you for the idea that you enjoy participating in that kind of debate -- and it doesn't at all make me discount your good nature and generosity.

I've definitely belonged to groups or frequented forums that are a lot more rough-and-tumble in the kind of expression of opinions they welcome.  So for me, it's more of a "there's a time and a place" kind of thing, and also, wanting to know when I walk through the front door (as it were) what I expect to find inside.  For whatever reason or reasons, it seems like a number of folks who come here have a view of what type of community it would be, that didn't expect the idea of no-holds-barred social/political debate and dark humor and so on.  I don't think it means that those are bad things to want to engage in.

But it's true that not everyone will want to.  And... I think it's also true that it feels like more of the spaces on the internet are like that -- rough, contentious, sometimes becoming uncivil -- that people come to value the ability to find some spaces (like this one) where it's a bit gentler and quieter. 

A question for folks who frequent Scroll of Colors more than I do, or even more than I did before the site-change -- does, or did, SoC have parts of it that offered that kind of space for "be as frank as you want and have debates, but everyone leaves the acrimony at the door"?  I know it had/has off-topic areas, but I don't really frequent those.  And I know that even the EQ-related debates could get a bit hot at times!

[Foxeye]

did, SoC have parts of it that offered that kind of space for "be as frank as you want and have debates, but everyone leaves the acrimony at the door"?  I know it had/has off-topic areas, but I don't really frequent those.  And I know that even the EQ-related debates could get a bit hot at times!

I don't think there ever was, which does not surprise me because I do not think that Richard would have desired such a place. There were certainly arguments that flared up, but the reaction was usually to try to calm it down rather than to direct that activity to a different part of the forums

.
.
.

After giving the subject more introspection, I do feel strongly that if we can find a way to allow members of the EQ fandom to rough-house without troubling those who just want to come here and relax from the Storm of Ugly that can be the internet...I still want to try that.  

When the Wolfrider's came to live in the Sun Village, they didn't stop hunting or howling.  The two cultures found a balance and came to value each other.  (With the exception of Strongbow, maybe.   )  Their differences gave both sides a chance to be more than they were.  Nightfall saw it was possible to dance safely without a human catching you off guard. Redlance found the peace and safety to let his magic emerge. Villagers saw that you could turn a herd of rampaging zwoots rather than retreat to the hills and let them destroy everything.

That is the model of what I envision in an EQ community - people from many "tribes" coexisting and enriching each other.        

And if nothing else, a "rumpus room" provides me a place to move threads/posts to that grow too hot for the general tone of this site.  That way the peaceful atmosphere can be preserved without censorship. If folks want to argue, I won't suppress them, but I will make them "take it outside the village".  No trampling people's gardens!    

It will be inaccessible to everyone except those who have expressly chosen to have access.  For the time being this means you PM me if you want access. Eventually I'll add a toggle to the Account Profile so you can come and go as feels right to you.

As such, the thread that started this all and led to some members leaving will remain there, but all posts relating to it (except this thread) will be removed from the rest of the forums.  Cross-contamination is not allowed!

[Berit]

Heya! I'm usually bad at these forum things! but let's try!... Well, many here say things like those should be shared with family and friends... but what about those who have none? there are people who have no one to talk to, yet they need to do so or they will go nuts... (literally)... should those people keep all bottled up inside until they explode?... if I posted something too bad previously, I'm sorry and didn't mean to cause any harm to anyone... rants can make people closer, though I admit, there is always a risk of it turning into a fight... if the rants annoy others, you can remove it, i don't want to be the party pooper, so... the choice is yours, foxeye!...

[Startear]

Well, the closest thing we have on the scroll, to my knowledge is "What you don't dare to say outloud" thread. This is pretty much where you either roar out the frustration in your life. Not allowed to do it towards other members on there however. (Been broken sadly.)

[Jeb]

I don't think there's anything wrong with having a sections that's available for arguments, as long as it's clear what it's for. On the Scroll there is a thread called "Rant Away!" that serves as a release valve where people can post about things that are bugging them, but usually the only responses are ones of sympathy or commisseration, so it would be a shock to someone to post something here expecting some sympathy to instead get an argument. Maybe instead of "Rants" it should be called "Debate Club" or "Devil's Advocacy" or "Viper Pit", something to let people know what they're getting in to.

There is also a side group on the Scroll that someone started as an insult battle, but it's had limited activity.

Reading through this thread also gets me wondering if, besides all the differences in culture and lifestyles that you deal with in a community like this, there isn't a generation-gap kind of thing going on. Being an older person (one who gained adulthood before the advent of the internet), I see this as an entertaining activity, and while I might have certain members here and on the scroll that I feel I have things in common with and like to varying degrees, I don't feel a deep connection for the most part. I understand that I am only seeing one facet of a member's life, and it's easy not to take things personally because there's a detachment there that comes from knowing that I don't really know much about the person posting. But I wonder if younger people are more used to communicating through Facebook and texting, so that a community like this feels much more "real" to them. And as Berit noted, they may not have another support network and feel that we really are all friends here, that we really know each other and unfortunately really get hurt by what's posted.

On an academic note, although the belief persists that it is good to vent frustrations and "let off steam", studies have shown that when people act aggressively, instead of calming them down, it usually leads to more aggresive behavior later on.

My answer to the poll above would be: "Yes. I doubt I would use it, but if other want it, that's fine by me."

[Eregyrn]

In a sense, I think that even this discussion has been a little hampered by the fact that not everyone here got to see the exchange that prompted the problem in the first place.  And that, prior to that exchange, the Rants section had been used by people to vent about problems affecting their lives, to which people had replied in sympathy.

The actual post that touched off this whole thing wasn't that type of post. 

It was more of a post that fit in with the type of thing Foxeye was describing from other communities -- ranting about a general social/political issue in the world today, and expressing opinions on it.  It wasn't a post that was directed at any specific individual here.  But -- the social issue about which the OP was ranting did relate to at least one other person here in a very personal and intense way.

I think that posts that are about "here's something I am going through personally, which is difficult" are very seldom going to result in the type of argument or hurt feelings that would cause a real problem.  Because I just don't see us as the type of community for someone to go into a thread such as that, and sharply criticize or condemn the poster for the problem they are having -- that's too obviously a kind of personal attack, and I think people would generally regard that as uncalled for.

It's trickier if someone wants to rant in a general way and criticize generally those who have particular kinds of personal problems. That isn't meant as a personal attack on anyone.  But, I think it's kind of understandable for someone to whom it applies personally to regard it as an oblique attack, and to make the point that the OP isn't talking about a faceless, generalized population, there are real people to whom the rant applies, and some of them are right here.

(And I have to say -- there was no clear indication from either the subject line or the opening paragraphs of the post to realize that it would stray into the territory it did.   So IMO, it wasn't a situation of, "well, you could just avoid reading it if it was going to upset you".  The part that caused the upset kind of came out of left field; again IMO.)


But yes -- all that said, it seems like a good idea to separate out (as Foxeye has already done) an area for posting about personal issues, from an area where it's intended that things could get really contentious, but they aren't supposed to be personal.