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Yes; we all have more than one side to ourselves, and this site should reflect our true natures.

5 (38.5%)

No; the Dark Side has its time and place, but I don't want it here even if I can ignore it.

7 (53.8%)

Just shut down the site; this place has forever been tainted.

1 (7.7%)

Total Members Voted: 11

[Foxeye]

It is good that members have posted how they personally feel about the subject (about any subject), and what they want in a community.

I think, however, that damage was done by speaking about what we think the community as a whole wants or does not want, or is or is not. By saying what the community is, however well-intentioned, it sends a message to those who do not fit that description that they are not actually part of (or welcome in) the community.

FWIW, Foxeye, I don't think badly of you for the idea that you enjoy participating in that kind of debate -- and it doesn't at all make me discount your good nature and generosity.

How I wish this had been "I don't think badly of anyone that they enjoy participating in that kind of debate", and not just directed at me!  

Over the past week I have observed deleted posts and deleted accounts.  All of these (with the exception of Sweetwater, which was for all intents and purposes a different issue) were people who do not precisely fit the definition of our community as I have seen it defined in this thread.  This suggests to me that these individuals do not feel welcome to participate, and in two cases I know for a fact that this is how they felt.  They *were* part of the community...but now they are not.

That is a disturbing self-fulfilling prophecy!

And I dearly hope that is not what anyone wanted.

But yes -- all that said, it seems like a good idea to separate out (as Foxeye has already done) an area for posting about personal issues, from an area where it's intended that things could get really contentious, but they aren't supposed to be personal.

Oh, and just to clarify...contention is not intended in Grrrrr. It's allowed.  For all I care folks can talk about the weather or their favorite toenail clipping methods. The important point is that if someone is reeeeeally worked up about the right way to clip toenails, everyone else needs to have a sense of humor about it. And said toenail evangelist needs to be comfortable if someone from the toenail filing side of the debate responds.

[Jeb]

(And I have to say -- there was no clear indication from either the subject line or the opening paragraphs of the post to realize that it would stray into the territory it did.   So IMO, it wasn't a situation of, "well, you could just avoid reading it if it was going to upset you".  The part that caused the upset kind of came out of left field; again IMO.)

And I think that anyone who's frequented any forums has seen this happen from time to time. No matter how conflict averse you are, no matter how friendly you try to be, you are dealing with people from vastly different backgrounds and cultures, and something, sometime is going to ruffle someone's feathers. I don't know how it could be avoided without banning all posts that contain opinions or lifestyle disclosures.

As far as people leaving because they don't feel comfortable, it's regrettable, but it also can't be avoided. I was president of a support/civic organization for a while, and one of the big lessons I learned there is that you can never be everything to everyone. You can try your best to address problems as they come up, but eventually it's up to the disgruntled person to decide what it's worth to them. There's a limit to how much responsibility you can take for someone else's feeling and actions.

[Multimedea]

I can't tell you how much I agree with Jeb's post. Every individual member here is absolutely responsible for how much they do (or do not) want to participate in this community. (Hence the term "community".)  Unless you, specifically, told someone they and their ideas were NOT welcome here, everything else is perception on the other's part. And actions (or overreactions) are on their own heads. Endless rounds of 'mea culpas' can be self-fulfilling in their own right. 

[Eregyrn]

And I think that anyone who's frequented any forums has seen this happen from time to time. No matter how conflict averse you are, no matter how friendly you try to be, you are dealing with people from vastly different backgrounds and cultures, and something, sometime is going to ruffle someone's feathers. I don't know how it could be avoided without banning all posts that contain opinions or lifestyle disclosures.

As far as people leaving because they don't feel comfortable, it's regrettable, but it also can't be avoided. I was president of a support/civic organization for a while, and one of the big lessons I learned there is that you can never be everything to everyone. You can try your best to address problems as they come up, but eventually it's up to the disgruntled person to decide what it's worth to them. There's a limit to how much responsibility you can take for someone else's feeling and actions.

I do agree with this.  I didn't mean the part about "not being able to tell from the post" in the sense of "people should be shielded from coming into contact with something that might upset them!"  Because I agree that's impossible.  I meant it to explain the idea of "clear advertising".  It sounds like Foxeye had one idea when she set up Rants, of what sort of stuff might be found in there.  But what actually got posted in there to date was something quite different from what she describes in the first post of this thread.  And I can see where someone would come to expect one type of content in that area, and not realize the range of content that was acceptable there and could be expected to be found.

Part of the existing guidelines for this site and its forums -- as it appears to me, anyway -- state that we should respect each other, and not flame each other.  (Persistently failing to do the one, or persistently doing the other, may be grounds for banning.)  So, you see that and you think to yourself, "okay, got it".  All I am saying is that if there's going to be an area of the forums in which those rules are suspended, that should be really, really clear.  So that you can decide for yourself if you want to chance it.  And so that it's clear that someone who is expressing a strong or even controversial opinion isn't breaking the rules of the site, they have a right to do that, *in there*.

Either way, though, yes -- apart from a hypothetical case of harassment or something, each person has to be responsible for their reactions.   Or responsible for following the guidelines already given here for how to resolve a dispute.

If the discussion in this thread so far has made people feel unwelcome in this community... that's regrettable.  But by just leaving, rather than discussing how what's been said here made them feel that way, it is impossible for us to take those opinions into account; or for them to discover whether they have misunderstood something, and they are not so unwelcome after all.

[Foxeye]

Every individual member here is absolutely responsible for how much they do (or do not) want to participate in this community. (Hence the term "community".) 

I agree that in the end we’re all responsible for ourselves.

Unless you, specifically, told someone they and their ideas were NOT welcome here, everything else is perception on the other's part.

...but I do not agree that I should disregard my perceptions of what someone is communicating just because their words are not direct. That doesn’t hold true off the internet, where body language and tone of voice are factors, and even online people are still very adept at communicating themselves indirectly.

I do have to be very careful about what conclusions I do draw, because I could be wrong.   That's where the personal responsibility comes in.

[Obi-Rak Kaeliri]

As the other admin, I am claiming my sovereign right to have the last word on this thread before closing it (rather than deleting it like Foxeye wanted to do).

There are many ways besides direct confrontation to express community hostility towards someone. Passive disapproval is often found in communities that strive to be extremely polite: in these communities the cultural and social values are imposed on the individual by leading questions, meaningful implications, and by innuendo. Stepping outside the norm is treated with deprivation of interaction, scorn, or both. I think you know what I'm talking about:

"You're not going to wear that, are you?"

...or...

BFF 1: "Hey, y'know, I saw Kaeliri pulled into a gun show yesterday!"
BFF 2: "No way! That's awful. And I thought he was such a level-headed guy."
BFF 1: "I know, right. I was thinking of going to his party, but now..."

...or...

"I'm sure you meant well."


You can imply all kinds of things, things that could be innocent in a different context or tone of voice, and leave someone wondering "am I crazy? am I crazy?" -- and then you can point back with a straight face say that you never said anything about them.

But I digress.

As Foxeye pointed out, some of you crossed the line from saying what you wanted in a community to saying what the community was about.

Speak your own mind; do not presume to speak mine. I do not agree with you.

A community on a site like this is continuously re-defined as new members sign up. The nature of a growing site is that no one member (or admin) gets to define what the community is about. A healthy community evolves organically as new members join and bring their own personalities to the mix. The existing members create the atmosphere that tends to attract like newcomers, but it is futile to try to dictate what the community is about because no one simple definition exists. At most anyone can hope to steer the interests of the members by creating opportunities for self-expression.

A community where someone attempts to dictate the nature of the community top-down, rather than letting the members' actions define it, is an unhealthy one. That is an anathema to both Foxeye and I.

The message about personal responsibility, by and large, is a good one. Let me be clear: Elfquest is not teletubbies and a degree of maturity is expected. EQ fans are generally, regardless of age, mature enough to fend for themselves, and over-protecting you from sharp edges does everyone a disservice. We will, however, support creation of an environment that is welcoming to every type of EQ fan, and this is one of the few areas where troublemakers will be dealt with swiftly and decisively.

I am closing this thread because the posts have devolved into repeating themselves and because we have the intel we sought for. We will endeavor to make the rant-section rules and guidelines visible to all, and will implement a self-controlled mechanism for getting access to it. If you have questions, feel free to PM Foxeye. Any thread created that continues this line of discussion will be moved to Grrrrr as the next thing either of us would post would include lots of extremely politically incorrect verbiage.

Behave yourselves*  

*except in Grrrrr


~K